I found this to be fascinating -- for those who may not have read the fine article, the movement isn't autonomic, it's due to the decomposition process. But studying what happens to a corpse between death and discovery is quite challenging, and I'm impressed that they devised a suitable experiment and were able to carry it out.
A MR tech colleague was scanning a cadaver one night after hours for someone’s research project (possibly on ultra short TE imaging). She finished a scan then reviewed it. They were moving and the images suffered from motion artifact. Presumably defrosting or something.
Someone that runs a funeral home wouldn't have an issue. They are the ones that cut up a body, that is donated to science, and ship parts around to buyers. Most institutions only want part of a body for testing and studying so a whole body is worth less than a cut up body.
Now does the post-mortal movement still occur in body parts versus the whole body?
Too bad Dick reported to the FBI that Lem was a faceless composite communist committee out to get him and brainwash the youth of America and undermine American SF with "crude, insulting and downright ignorant attacks", while Lem asymmetrically thought all science fiction writers were charlatans except for Philip K Dick.
>In 1973, Lem became an honorary member of the Science Fiction Writers of America, a gesture of ‘international goodwill’ on the association’s part. However, in 1976, 70 percent of the SFWA’s voted in favour of a resolution to revoke Lem’s membership. A very quick dismissal for such a prestigious author, but the reasons for his quick ejection from the organisation are clear – he didn’t seem to regard his honorary membership as any sort of honour. He considered American science fiction ‘ill thought out, poorly written, and interested more in adventure that ideas or new literary forms’ and ‘bad writing tacked together with wooden dialogue’, and these are just a few examples of Lem’s deprecatory attitude towards the US branch of his genre.
>Lem, however, considered one science fiction author as exempt from his scathing criticisms – his denouncer, Philip K. Dick. The title of an essay Lem published about Dick is evidence enough of this high regard: A Visionary Among the Charlatans. The essay itself waxes lyrical on Dick’s many excellent qualities as a writer, and expounds upon the dire state of US sci-fi. Lem considered Dick to be the only writer exempt from his cynical view of American SF. It seems likely that Dick was unaware of Lem’s high opinion of him and that he took Lem’s disparaging comments personally, stating in his letter to the FBI:
>"Lem’s creative abilities now appear to have been overrated and Lem’s crude, insulting and downright ignorant attacks on American science fiction and American science fiction writers went too far too fast and alienated everyone but the Party faithful (I am one of those highly alienated)."
For the right price, you can buy a Presidential Pardon after a hit-and-run before arriving at your destination on time. Tesla will even call the police car chase off in real time.
I'd guess that Lem used lieutenant rank from citizens' militia (which was back then the police force in Polish People's Republic), not knowing about rank changes in the UK - it was replaced by chief inspector as you linked. goodreads.com uses "Lt. Gregory" in book summary so it's not a translation issue.
This type of research is necessary if we want to do forensic pathology. Location affects fauna involved. And also weather and seasons affects how it progresses. One example I read was that different insects are present at different stages. So based on their cycles you can narrow down time of death somewhat.
There is a nuance between "secret" as used in "top secret" and secret as in "secretary". The later means more private than hidden from view. This is a secret location because the general public is not allowed to visit.
Maybe because "private" in English can also mean non-publicly-owned, ie in private hands. This facility could easily be a publicly-owned and yet not open to the public. English is weird.
For me the question is, why would it be static? A piece of fruit decomposing (on a tree or otherwise) clearly doesn't stay static, why would anything else?
The expectation that the majestiy of death respects the dignity of humans?
(Or too many bad movies and a society that tries to banish the fought of death, instead of accepting it as part of the natural cycle. Also, corpes are usually filled up to the top with formaldehyd.)
I had a near death experience when I was 10 years old. I’ve never found a valid scientific explanation for what I observed, considering I never heard of NDEs and this was pre-internet, and I had a classic NDE with a life review etc. Really can’t logically explain this
Considering how clueless we still are regarding how the brain works, and have only started to comprehensively map out the brains of the tiniest organisms, I really don't find it surprising that there's not yet a rigorous or even a reasonable approximate explanation for such a high level experience.
I was choking. I realized I was likely going to die, and I was very disappointed. My vision started to go fade even though my eyes were open. I saw vignettes of my life appear coming from the left, then playing like a video in front of my vision, then fading and going to the right, as the next vignette appeared. I was not scared so much as disappointed. The whole thing lasted somewhere between 30 and 60 seconds, at which point I snapped out of it, and grabbed some stranger's soda and poured it down my throat, which dislodged the food I was choking on.
You were choking so severely that you were beginning to black out, and then went another 30+ seconds (maybe your sense of time was altered?), before solving the problem yourself. Were there other people around that noticed you almost choked to death?
The poster you're replying to said "I never heard of NDEs" for the exact reason you are mis-correcting: to show that they were NOT simply regurgitating a cultural stereotype, but that it is in fact a real phenomenon.
Here's a tip for the Internet and for Real Life: Assume the most charitable interpretation when conversing with someone, not the least. It is more often correct, and it doesn't make you needlessly look like an asshole.
> to show that they were NOT simply regurgitating a cultural stereotype, but that it is in fact a real phenomenon.
Right, but does anyone think that that's what people with NDEs are doing?
I don't get what the poster was trying to say. It's like they're trying to debunk something that doesn't exist to need debunking? And the article isn't even about NDEs, like, at all.
I'm just really confused what the point of the comment was?
I found this to be fascinating -- for those who may not have read the fine article, the movement isn't autonomic, it's due to the decomposition process. But studying what happens to a corpse between death and discovery is quite challenging, and I'm impressed that they devised a suitable experiment and were able to carry it out.
A MR tech colleague was scanning a cadaver one night after hours for someone’s research project (possibly on ultra short TE imaging). She finished a scan then reviewed it. They were moving and the images suffered from motion artifact. Presumably defrosting or something.
She wasn’t ok with this.
That's funny. Traumatic for her, but funny.
Someone needs to do research like this, but I would have a very difficult time with the subject matter.
It’s a fair bit more common than you might assume. This article talks about 6 of such “body farms” in the USA.
They are focussed on learning about decomposition in different settings, such as being wrapped in plastic, carpet, in a car’s trunk etc.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/06/10/th...
Someone that runs a funeral home wouldn't have an issue. They are the ones that cut up a body, that is donated to science, and ship parts around to buyers. Most institutions only want part of a body for testing and studying so a whole body is worth less than a cut up body.
Now does the post-mortal movement still occur in body parts versus the whole body?
Reminds me of lesser known Lem's novel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Investigation
The idea that brains keep going / can be kept going after death was pretty central to PKD's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubik
I love how 60s SF authors were absolutely certain that psychic powers were going to be unlocked.
To be fair CIA documents said as much
Not many people realize how official some of these things are.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R0017002...
Phillip K Dick in particular thought that Jesus was communicating with him from the future via tachyons.
Lem and Dick are such precious peas in a pod!
Too bad Dick reported to the FBI that Lem was a faceless composite communist committee out to get him and brainwash the youth of America and undermine American SF with "crude, insulting and downright ignorant attacks", while Lem asymmetrically thought all science fiction writers were charlatans except for Philip K Dick.
https://english.lem.pl/faq#P.K.Dick
https://culture.pl/en/article/philip-k-dick-stanislaw-lem-is...
Philip K. Dick: A Visionary Among the Charlatans (1975) (depauw.edu) 140 points by pmoriarty on June 19, 2018 | hide | past | favorite | 51 comments
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17349026
https://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/5/lem5art.htm
>In 1973, Lem became an honorary member of the Science Fiction Writers of America, a gesture of ‘international goodwill’ on the association’s part. However, in 1976, 70 percent of the SFWA’s voted in favour of a resolution to revoke Lem’s membership. A very quick dismissal for such a prestigious author, but the reasons for his quick ejection from the organisation are clear – he didn’t seem to regard his honorary membership as any sort of honour. He considered American science fiction ‘ill thought out, poorly written, and interested more in adventure that ideas or new literary forms’ and ‘bad writing tacked together with wooden dialogue’, and these are just a few examples of Lem’s deprecatory attitude towards the US branch of his genre.
>Lem, however, considered one science fiction author as exempt from his scathing criticisms – his denouncer, Philip K. Dick. The title of an essay Lem published about Dick is evidence enough of this high regard: A Visionary Among the Charlatans. The essay itself waxes lyrical on Dick’s many excellent qualities as a writer, and expounds upon the dire state of US sci-fi. Lem considered Dick to be the only writer exempt from his cynical view of American SF. It seems likely that Dick was unaware of Lem’s high opinion of him and that he took Lem’s disparaging comments personally, stating in his letter to the FBI:
>"Lem’s creative abilities now appear to have been overrated and Lem’s crude, insulting and downright ignorant attacks on American science fiction and American science fiction writers went too far too fast and alienated everyone but the Party faithful (I am one of those highly alienated)."
“The door refused to open. It said, "Five cents, please.”
Nobody tell Elon this is a thing.
I pity the fool trying to escape from a burning Tesla without a nickel!
Your lack of ambition is disturbing...
If the Tesla is on fire, the price is much higher!
For the right price, you can buy a Presidential Pardon after a hit-and-run before arriving at your destination on time. Tesla will even call the police car chase off in real time.
Scotland yard lieutenant... Has there ever been such a UK police rank?
According to Wikipedia, no.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_ranks_of_the_United_K...
There were ranks of Lieutenant and Detective Lieutenant, but only in Scotland and only until about 1950.
I'd guess that Lem used lieutenant rank from citizens' militia (which was back then the police force in Polish People's Republic), not knowing about rank changes in the UK - it was replaced by chief inspector as you linked. goodreads.com uses "Lt. Gregory" in book summary so it's not a translation issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_inspector#United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant#United_Kingdom_and_...
But the rank doesn't appear to have ever been used in Scotland yard or the MET, which might have lead to why it was used incorrectly.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Yard
You may also enjoy the Running Nose by Lem. Core idea is somewhat similar to the Investigation but this book offers a more satisfying ending.
I think the English translation is The Chain of Chance. Great book.
Thank you so much for this! I have read a fair amount of Lem but somehow completely missed this one.
This type of research is necessary if we want to do forensic pathology. Location affects fauna involved. And also weather and seasons affects how it progresses. One example I read was that different insects are present at different stages. So based on their cycles you can narrow down time of death somewhat.
> which lies in a secret location outside of Sydney, Australia
A bit of poetic license there? An aerial photo and lat/long are in this paper.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Aerial-view-of-the-Austr...
Here it is on Google Maps:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B038'51.4%22S+150%C2...
There is a nuance between "secret" as used in "top secret" and secret as in "secretary". The later means more private than hidden from view. This is a secret location because the general public is not allowed to visit.
"Secret" also meaning "private" may be a distinction in some languages [1], but not in contemporary English.
[1] a well-known example https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Apostolic_Archive#%E...
why not just say private location? My house is a private place, but it's not a secret.
Maybe because "private" in English can also mean non-publicly-owned, ie in private hands. This facility could easily be a publicly-owned and yet not open to the public. English is weird.
Then it's simply restricted.
How about "stinky", if the goal is to discourage corpse tourism while being technically accurate and honest.
Why is everyone arguing about the semantics here? Why don't we just start a zoom call with the author and complain together?
What’s your address?
Area 51 is also a secret facility. We all know where it is, though.
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My favourite sentence from the article: »I have had a case of body moving across a table due to maggot activity.« :D
To those who are interested in reading more, I recommend Mary Roach's "Stiff" (and all her other work too!) highly highly highly!
Is anyone actually surprised that a decomposing body isn't perfectly static?
For me the question is, why would it be static? A piece of fruit decomposing (on a tree or otherwise) clearly doesn't stay static, why would anything else?
The expectation that the majestiy of death respects the dignity of humans?
(Or too many bad movies and a society that tries to banish the fought of death, instead of accepting it as part of the natural cycle. Also, corpes are usually filled up to the top with formaldehyd.)
If you read the article it states that they were surprised by how much movement there was, not that there was movement.
I had a near death experience when I was 10 years old. I’ve never found a valid scientific explanation for what I observed, considering I never heard of NDEs and this was pre-internet, and I had a classic NDE with a life review etc. Really can’t logically explain this
Life review is a stereotypical effect of some psychedelics such as ibogaine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXjLD1tDC7k
Now consider that your body naturally produces psychedelics, including DMT.
I've read a theory about maybe the brain releasing DMT as a panic response to dying? Hopefully you are ok!
Considering how clueless we still are regarding how the brain works, and have only started to comprehensively map out the brains of the tiniest organisms, I really don't find it surprising that there's not yet a rigorous or even a reasonable approximate explanation for such a high level experience.
Wow. Glad you are ok! If you are comfortable with this, would you be willing to share what the NDE was like?
I was choking. I realized I was likely going to die, and I was very disappointed. My vision started to go fade even though my eyes were open. I saw vignettes of my life appear coming from the left, then playing like a video in front of my vision, then fading and going to the right, as the next vignette appeared. I was not scared so much as disappointed. The whole thing lasted somewhere between 30 and 60 seconds, at which point I snapped out of it, and grabbed some stranger's soda and poured it down my throat, which dislodged the food I was choking on.
You were choking so severely that you were beginning to black out, and then went another 30+ seconds (maybe your sense of time was altered?), before solving the problem yourself. Were there other people around that noticed you almost choked to death?
Do you think people who have NDEs only have "classic" NDE symptoms because they've read about them and that's what they expect to experience?
The poster you're replying to said "I never heard of NDEs" for the exact reason you are mis-correcting: to show that they were NOT simply regurgitating a cultural stereotype, but that it is in fact a real phenomenon.
Here's a tip for the Internet and for Real Life: Assume the most charitable interpretation when conversing with someone, not the least. It is more often correct, and it doesn't make you needlessly look like an asshole.
> to show that they were NOT simply regurgitating a cultural stereotype, but that it is in fact a real phenomenon.
Right, but does anyone think that that's what people with NDEs are doing?
I don't get what the poster was trying to say. It's like they're trying to debunk something that doesn't exist to need debunking? And the article isn't even about NDEs, like, at all.
I'm just really confused what the point of the comment was?
Ever since I saw body farms on CSI I wanted to sign up to donate my corpse to one of those.
Is it weird to want to see a time-lapse video of this phenomenon???
"Hell, we found one corpse continuing to work as a procurement mananger at a defense contractor for six months before anyone even noticed."
Having served in uniform before, this made me come closer than I'd like to spitting out my coffee.
"Apparently throwing money at senators is a literal no-brainer"
[flagged]
So let me guess, the solution is either a stake through the heart or lots and lots of garlic?
Right angles work too, unless they carry a crucifix glitch inhibitor.
How does making corpses taste delicious make them stop moving?
If it was a steak through the heart, then maybe.
Increases probability of fork and knife.
... except in the loa worshipping areas, where you can get a few good years of unpaid labor out of a corpse?
i believe this will have supplementary value :
Thanatology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanatology
Let's see some video, or it didn't happen.
Finished for the day, I guess I'll just check hacker news before I go to bed...
... and now that sleep is off the table, time to research zombies on wikipedia
Here, this’lll help — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Serpent_and_the_Rainbow_(b...
I actually loved that movie (though dated even when I saw it) and have been hoping someone would remake it. Bill Pullman was great though
Well for me it’s my morning commute read. Let’s see how often during the day this comes back up.
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> Human corpses keep moving for over a year after death, scientist says (2019)
Some of them were even presidents. /s
we are never really dead
Elvis is still alive 48 light years away.